All this month, we’ve been sharing best practices around hiring and interviewing product managers. If you checked out both episodes, you might be thinking: “This is a lot of work! How can we be sure we’ll end up with a stellar product manager, and that they won’t quit in three days or three months?”
We get that hiring and interviewing are just two pieces of a larger puzzle around talent management. And of course it’s not enough to just attract top talent; there’s more that needs to be done to make sure they stay motivated and productive. So to quell your concerns and help you figure it out, we’re going to do a deep dive in today’s episode about what to do after you hire a product manager. We’ll be sharing why current practices often fall short of meeting a new employee’s expectations and some alternate best practices for onboarding, training, retaining, and evaluating the performance of product managers.
Jeana Alayaay, Director of Internal Products and Services at Pivotal, is back this week.
Here’s what you’ll learn in this meaty episode:
Listen to the episode on iTunes!
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK Jeana, we’ve covered a lot already. We’ve talked about some of the best practices when it comes to sourcing Product Managers, and then interviewing them. And, all of this before we even get into training, and retaining them. So, please tell me that we can guarantee for our audiences, we’re going to find that mythical, or magical unicorn Product Manager.
Jeana Alayaay: Unfortunately I don’t know that they’re findable. Because, I don’t think unicorns are turnkey. But, I do think you can develop unicorns for your company, or your specific context.
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK, but what if they leave in three days or three months? That’s a lot of effort.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah, oh man. That’s tough, we’ll cover that. Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK, let’s get to it then. Welcome to Build, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I’m your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. In each episode innovators and I debunk a number of myths and misconceptions related to building products, companies, and your career in tech. Now, over the last couple episodes we’ve been sharing some best practices when it comes to sourcing, as well as interviewing and hiring top Product Managers. But, I’m sure you’re still worried if your Product Manager is going to be the right fit, or maybe you hire them only to discover that they weren’t quite a top performer as you thought they were in the interview process.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Well fear not, because Jeana Alayaay is back. You’ll recall, Jeana leads the Product Management, as well as Design team. We’re going to share some best practices when it comes to training, as well as retaining your top performers so that they don’t just up and quit. Thanks for joining us again.
Jeana Alayaay: Thanks for having me again.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah. OK, so like I said, we’ve taken a lot of time to kind of address the criteria for how to find candidates, and source those candidates. But then, we gotta make sure that these people are going to perform, and stick around. What do we do next?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah. So, I think the big thing is having a development plan that’s shared with you and your Product Manager, right? I know that sounds a super simple common sense thing to do. But, it’s amazing ‘cause when we hire these top performers, we sort of expect them to just go on their merry way, cut wood and hull water. Then, one day they’ll leave, right? We always think, “Oh, it’s because it’s more money,” or whatever the case may be.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Sure.
Jeana Alayaay: But, often the feedback is, “I just didn’t feel like I was growing.” Right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Hmm, mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: Having that conversation at the beginning and saying, “Hey, how do you need to grow, how do you want to grow, and how can we have an actual development plan that puts you in the way of the opportunities to get you that growth?” Up front is really important.
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK. What if they don’t know?
Jeana Alayaay: Then you’re going to have to figure it out together.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: I think that obviously folks who tend to be a little bit farther in their journey tend to have a better idea. But, you always have folks who are just starting out. I think just coming up with some things initially, and then iterating your way towards it is totally fine. I think just having a lot of checkpoints there, right? I don’t mean a development plan that you check in once in the annual performance review. I mean, something that you’re visiting in every one on one.
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK.
Jeana Alayaay: That, you look at every quarter and you say, “Are we making progress against goal?”
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: With those folks who don’t know, “Hey, what are we seeing, where have we gotten feedback, what are your feelings on this now that you’ve sort of been in the works for a while?”
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah, so let’s backtrack a little bit and just talk about onboarding.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Do you have some best practices when it comes to even onboarding a new Product Manager coming into your organization?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah. Have them spend a lot of time cross functionally at first.
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK.
Jeana Alayaay: Spend some time with the engineers, spend some time with the designers, spend a lot of time with leaders, those folks who, they’re going to need to get alignment and decisions from.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right, mm-hmm .
Jeana Alayaay: I think there’s just a lot of up front networking that needs to happen, that we sort of gloss over. ‘Cause we always want them to sort of jump right in.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: And, just start doing things. But, that will get you only so far until relationships really come into play. And so, I always like to sort of invert that model and say, “Build the relationships first.” The doing thing, that will happen.
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK, got it. For yourself as either the Hiring Manager, or as the Manager for this new candidate.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: How do you think about coaching them, or training them?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah. I think the first thing is to come forward with really clear expectations. One of the things that I say is, I haven’t seen a Product Manager who’s blown my mind in less than a year.
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK, yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: Let me explain more of that. Even if you bring in a fairly seasoned, or senior person, right? They just don’t even know the landscape, right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: So much of their job is moving people in the landscape. It’s like, to expect them to be here when they don’t even know who those people are, is the wrong expectation to set for both of you. I think saying, “Hey, I expect you to be cutting water, and hulling water in three months. At six months, I think you’re going to have a good sense of what’s going on. And, at a year you’re really going to start to be able to make strategic moves with people.”
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK.
Jeana Alayaay: I think that’s actually a good approach.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Got it, so kind of set some milestones. But, what if there are barriers? The company’s goals change, or the product goals change.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Or, some giant customer comes in and takes up all of the priorities.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: How do you kind of back channel that, or bring it back into their specific goals, or their career development?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say this sort of harkens back to what I consider to be a red flag for a Product Manager, is not asking for help. The other side of that is top performers are really great about raising their hand and saying, “I need help.” Or, “I think something is changing.” Right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: They’re actually out there in the woods.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: Sort of getting a sense of how the Earth is moving.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: So, sometimes they’re the best person to say, “I think the tides are changing and we should pay attention to that.” I think having, again, a lot of frequent touch points and saying, “Hey, is the roadmap changing? Should it change? Has the strategy changed? Are there things in the business that are evolving, that are going to affect us?” And, having that be a part of the regular conversation is super important.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Got it.
Jeana Alayaay: If we’re waiting to the point that it’s already changed, and we’re in a fire drill mode.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: It’s too late.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: The feedback loop is too long.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yep. OK, so we’re putting in a lot of effort to onboard, train, and consistently coach them. But for whatever reason, after they’ve been a product manager for you for a few months, you notice that they’re just not really performing. They might have been stellar in that interview process, but something just isn’t adding up.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: What do you do?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah. I think the first thing I do is sort of turn the mirror back on myself and say, “Have I actually set expectations clear enough.” Right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: ‘Cause often they just don’t know what their job is. The flailing that you’re seeing is them trying to figure that out, right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: We have this expectation that they’re going to know exactly what to do-
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: …And, they don’t. Maybe it’s not you. Maybe it’s somebody else in the system that has a lot of impact on their day to day work. I think the next thing is actually having a conversation about it. Are they aware of it?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: And, can they actually give you some guidance about how to coach them, right? I think that you have folks who have a lot of self awareness. And so, saying, “Hey, I think we’re struggling. What do you think is going on here?” And, seeing what they say. Then say like, “OK.” If there’s awareness there say like, “Why do you think it is that you’re struggling? How do we get you the help that you need?” And, just having a very explicit conversation about it. I think it’s totally death by a thousand cuts. Have the conversation early and often, and don’t wait until it’s gone on-
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: …And on, and on for too long.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah. I think even in the expectation setting, getting very granular. I know some organizations expect their Product Managers to do all the wire frames.
Jeana Alayaay: Yep.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Maybe do some consistent usability tests, and other organizations are like, “Oh no, we don’t expect that from our Product Managers.”
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: “That’s like something a Designer does.” So then, when the Product Manager doesn’t deliver a very concrete thing, they’re kind of like, “What are you doing?” Right?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: But, they never conveyed, “These were some things we expected from you.”
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: They just kind of conveyed the high level, “Improve our conversion rate.”
Jeana Alayaay: Yes.
Poornima Vijayashanker: “Monetize our product. Get us out there, and get more customers.” Right? I think you kind of have to have that balance of, “Here’s the super granular stuff, here’s the high-level stuff.” And, maybe for the high-level stuff you figure out how to go out and do it. Maybe that’s talking to customers.
Jeana Alayaay: Yep.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Maybe that’s something else.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah. I think, again, keeping a really tight feedback loop on that is really important, right? Knowing that they’re not sure what’s going on.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Sure.
Jeana Alayaay: Or, you haven’t gotten granular enough. Opening up that feedback channel is really important.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: I even say, “Hey, if you’re not getting the information you need from me, bang down my door.”
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: “Please, early and often.”
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: I think the other bit is like, that I forgot to mention, is make sure that they’re shadowing a Product Manager who’s already hit their stride in their work, right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK.
Jeana Alayaay: So, that they have a sense of what the day to day should look like, right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: Not to say that it should look exactly like that, but they know what normal is.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Sure.
Jeana Alayaay: You know? ‘Cause it’s like, how else will they know that you’re supposed to do the wire frames, or you’re not supposed to do the wireframes.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right, right.
Jeana Alayaay: It’s…you know?
Poornima Vijayashanker: I think it can be a challenge though in a smaller organization.
Jeana Alayaay: Sure.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Where, this might be the first Product Manager.
Jeana Alayaay: Yep.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Maybe they’re taking on somebody’s responsibility who was the Lead Designer.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Or, the Chief Product Officer.
Jeana Alayaay: Yep.
Poornima Vijayashanker: And so, now they’re taking on a bunch of tasks like daily to-do’s, but then they also have the higher level kind of road mapping, thinking about where they’re going.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah, so Product Manager, if you’re stepping into this role, make sure you do stakeholder interviews up front, right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK. Oh, that’s good.
Jeana Alayaay: So, when you get into that org, go in, figure out who’s doing the work, who the leaders are, and saying, “Where do you need me to fill in the gaps? Where do you need me to take the load off you? What is the plan for this?” Right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: If you’re the first on any team, figuring out what the hiring plan is—
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: …is super important, right? ‘Cause that’s how you can figure out where you’re going to water between rocks, where you’re going to need to fill in.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Jeana Alayaay: If the plan is to hire more and more Designers first, right? Probably don’t focus too much on taking up all that work. Focus somewhere else, like, “I’m going to have to do more of this sort of classic Product Manager backlog stuff, because we’re not going to hire them until later.” Right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah, stakeholder interviews, have a sense of what the hiring plan is, make sure you get milestones from them. Say, “OK, I know that we don’t have the funds, or the time, or whatever to hire today. When do we expect to hire?” Right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: So, you can even manage your expectations around how long your works going to look like this.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah. Even after all of this effort, right? We have open door policy, we’re coaching, they’re giving us feedback. Somebody just stops performing, and all of our efforts aren’t going to kind of turn this candidate, this employee around. What do we do?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah, so I think when we first get the sense that it’s not working, it’s a service to them and to you to actually explicitly say, “This isn’t working. What are we going to do about it?”
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: I know that seems like, again, very simple. But, you’d be surprised how many managers struggle to actually have that conversation. It’s like, often the person doesn’t know that they’re not performing until they’re put on a PIP, or they’re asked to leave, right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: Again, saying early, or when you actually believe it’s become true that like, “Hey, this isn’t working.” That’s a really important step. ‘Cause one, you’re giving them the opportunity to turn it around. And, you’re also giving yourself the opportunity to think differently about the problem. Let’s say you go through all of that. I would say, coach them out, right? Have an explicit conversation about, “This doesn’t seem like the right fit. How can I help you get onto the next thing?”
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: Now, of course there’s extenuating circumstances where there are like-
Poornima Vijayashanker: Sure, right.
Jeana Alayaay: …Crazy things happen with the job or whatever. But, I feel like that’s a different case.
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK.
Jeana Alayaay: Usually it’s just like, they no longer meet the needs of the org, or the orgs changed.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: Or, they were the right person two years ago, but not the right person today.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: All those sort of things. It’s usually fit things.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah. Which brings up the kind of overriding question which is, the performance review, right?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Having to wait six months, or a year.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: And, the performance review for a Product Manager is definitely different from your Engineer’s, where things are a little bit more, I wouldn’t say this in every case, but a little bit more cut and dry.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: People are writing code, it’s quality, it’s tested, it gets out there, or they’re fixing bugs. In a Product Manager role, it’s a little bit more nuanced, where they may come back to you and say, “Well, here are all the things that I’ve done. But, now I’m stuck because the stakeholder won’t move us forward.”
Jeana Alayaay: Yep.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Or, “I’m stuck because marketing needs to have a bigger budget to attract more customers so that we can then convert and monetize them.”
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah.
Poornima Vijayashanker: So, how do you kind of structure that performance review?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah. I think this goes back to having a development plan early on, and actually keeping a pulse on it, like a very frequent pulse on it. It comes up, at least in passing in my one on one’s biweekly, certainly monthly, and then on the quarter, and so on and so forth. I think the product, to what you’re saying. The product management cycle is much longer than the dev or design cycle.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: I think it is harder to get strong signals.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: But, I think there are success metrics that should be in the development plan that you’re sort of measuring as you go, and you should also be iterating on them. Again, the thing that would alarm me, is if they hadn’t told me about said stakeholder that’s blocking them, until the performance review.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah, right.
Jeana Alayaay: Right? That’s the wrong time to tell me. I would say, that’s a performance issue, versus being blocked, you know?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: ‘Cause, if that was a thing that I could have tried to help you solve six months ago, we should have done that six months ago. I’m not sure why we’re waiting-
Poornima Vijayashanker: Sure.
Jeana Alayaay: …Waiting on it till now.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: The things that I would think of as a performance issue, performance issues are usually communication based.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm. What are some specific success metrics?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah, so the success metrics that I like to put in Product Managers plans are usually learning goals, right? At any given time, a product is in a specific life cycle. Thinking about what part of the funnel you’re focusing on, or how you’re trying to develop out that product and say to yourself, “OK, what do we need to learn as a team in order to get to the next phase for that product?”
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: And so, having learning goals for Product Managers that point to that is really important. Things like, “We should go out and learn from users, like what the next problem is.” I’m being super generic here.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Sure.
Jeana Alayaay: But, “Do we have evidence about what platform we should develop out next?” Not so quantitative, but really like, “Hey, are they out there seeking the problem, moving the org in the direction?” Right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: ‘Cause that’s a lot of their job, is do we see evidence of movement.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Got it, OK. Finally, despite all of your best efforts someone just ups and quits. Because, this is such a critical role, how do you respond?
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah, I guess it really depends on the circumstance. I think the first question I would ask myself is, “Did we give them enough permission not to buy in the interview process.” Right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: There’s always extenuating circumstances. Something with the family, they were offered double somewhere.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Sure.
Jeana Alayaay: I don’t know what those things are. But, there’s other things like they came in, and it’s not at all what they expected it. That’s the thing I want to fix.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Mm-hmm.
Jeana Alayaay: If we didn’t give them a good sense of what the environments going to be like, I think that’s on us. Again, I think the other bit is, make sure you always have your list of 20 people that you’re going to hit up next.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah. Of course, of course. Go back and see our first episode on that.
Jeana Alayaay: ‘Cause you just never know when you’re going to need to fill a role. You just don’t know, you should always be prepared.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right. I think it’s also, it is a bit of a challenge though to suss some of that out in an exit interview because people want to leave, and they don’t want to burn bridges, or they’re kind of like, “I don’t want to spell this out for you. I mean, if you don’t know why I’m leaving, I don’t know if you’ll ever know.” Sometimes that happens to-
Jeana Alayaay: Right.
Poornima Vijayashanker: …It might not be your specific fault as the Hiring Manager-
Jeana Alayaay: Totally.
Poornima Vijayashanker: …It might be a team issue, it might be kind of a company wide, or a leadership issue.
Jeana Alayaay: That’s right.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: Yeah. Having a postmortem within the working group, I think is a way that we’ve addressed that in the past, right?
Poornima Vijayashanker: OK.
Jeana Alayaay: ‘Cause, I totally agree with you.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: During the exit interview, they don’t want to say all those things.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: They don’t want to air all the laundry.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah.
Jeana Alayaay: So, I think having a postmortem as a team and saying, “Hey, so and so left. What do we know about that? Context?” Right? “What are the different perspectives here, what did we see, what did we not see?” Again, we can’t all possibly have the information.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Right.
Jeana Alayaay: So, getting all that data from the different places, and pulling it together. At least to have a clear picture of what might have happened, super useful.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Thanks a lot Jeana, for sharing your best practices when it comes to sourcing, interviewing, hiring, and retaining Product Managers.
Jeana Alayaay: Thanks for having me, it’s always fun to chat.
Poornima Vijayashanker: Yeah. That’s it for this week’s episode of Build. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, to receive the next episode. And, be sure to share this episode with your friends, your teammates, and your boss. Ciao for now.
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